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	<title>Comments on: The Great BPMN Debate</title>
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	<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/</link>
	<description>BPM, Enterprise 2.0 and technology trends in business.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Column 2 by Sandy Kemsley : BPM and Model-Driven Development, SaaS and the economy</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7590</link>
		<dc:creator>Column 2 by Sandy Kemsley : BPM and Model-Driven Development, SaaS and the economy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7590</guid>
		<description>[...] part on BPM and model-driven development was written prior to the Great BPMN Debate, but there&#8217;s an obvious tie-in, since BPMN is the modeling language that&#8217;s typically [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] part on BPM and model-driven development was written prior to the Great BPMN Debate, but there&#8217;s an obvious tie-in, since BPMN is the modeling language that&#8217;s typically [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Right Amount of BPMN &#171; Go Flow</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7552</link>
		<dc:creator>The Right Amount of BPMN &#171; Go Flow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 05:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7552</guid>
		<description>[...]   After a few months without much BPM discussion, then I blinked and found that I have been missing the Greate BPMN Debate. To bring you up to speed: Michael zur Muehlen and Jan Recker have been studying how people [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]   After a few months without much BPM discussion, then I blinked and found that I have been missing the Greate BPMN Debate. To bring you up to speed: Michael zur Muehlen and Jan Recker have been studying how people [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Light BPM</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7515</link>
		<dc:creator>Light BPM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7515</guid>
		<description>"A good system analyst is a bad programmer" was the opening phrase of my system anlysis course.  I  am glad it was said loudly. Of course every programmer needs to do some of it sometimes. 
Right now it seems that BPM approaches create vagueness about the who is the right person to do what. I am concerned about companies don't see a consolidated methodology and therefore won't be excited about BPM implementation.
Please read this myth-breaking article:
"The State of BPM: Perspectives of an Industry Insider"
http://www.bpm.com/BriefingRO.asp?Briefingid=31</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A good system analyst is a bad programmer&#8221; was the opening phrase of my system anlysis course.  I  am glad it was said loudly. Of course every programmer needs to do some of it sometimes.<br />
Right now it seems that BPM approaches create vagueness about the who is the right person to do what. I am concerned about companies don&#8217;t see a consolidated methodology and therefore won&#8217;t be excited about BPM implementation.<br />
Please read this myth-breaking article:<br />
&#8220;The State of BPM: Perspectives of an Industry Insider&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.bpm.com/BriefingRO.asp?Briefingid=31" rel="nofollow">http://www.bpm.com/BriefingRO.asp?Briefingid=31</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sandy Kemsley</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7514</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy Kemsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7514</guid>
		<description>Light BPM, I appreciate your comment, although notice that it comes from the same IP address as "BPM Addict". I would much prefer if you use your real name, since I have had comment trolls who use this same technique before (multiple fake names from the same IP address).

It sounds like you don't have a problem with (for example) propagating errors up to the top level for reporting, but rather are saying that maybe it doesn't need to be graphically represented that way, correct? Propagating errors up to a higher level in order to facilitate appropriate error handling is a common coding technique not because it's particularly efficient (which it's not) but because the person who designs the code needs to specify where the error handling will occur and how it will manifest. Business analysts who are modeling business processes need to think about the same thing: if an error occurs at some level, how will it be handled? BPMN provides a graphical method for them to propagate the errors up so that they're visible at correct level of the diagram, both for presentation purposes and to put the management of the error in the right place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Light BPM, I appreciate your comment, although notice that it comes from the same IP address as &#8220;BPM Addict&#8221;. I would much prefer if you use your real name, since I have had comment trolls who use this same technique before (multiple fake names from the same IP address).</p>
<p>It sounds like you don&#8217;t have a problem with (for example) propagating errors up to the top level for reporting, but rather are saying that maybe it doesn&#8217;t need to be graphically represented that way, correct? Propagating errors up to a higher level in order to facilitate appropriate error handling is a common coding technique not because it&#8217;s particularly efficient (which it&#8217;s not) but because the person who designs the code needs to specify where the error handling will occur and how it will manifest. Business analysts who are modeling business processes need to think about the same thing: if an error occurs at some level, how will it be handled? BPMN provides a graphical method for them to propagate the errors up so that they&#8217;re visible at correct level of the diagram, both for presentation purposes and to put the management of the error in the right place.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandy Kemsley</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7513</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy Kemsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7513</guid>
		<description>BPM Addict, I agree that there's some question over who should be doing what in the entire spectrum of process discovery, modeling and design, although I disagree that programmers don't normally have strong systems analysis skills: if so, then they picked the wrong profession, since most programmers that I know (including me in a past life) always had to do some degree of systems analysis. Process analysis is a different story, and mostly programmers aren't going to do that primarily because they don't understand the nuances of the business process itself, not that they don't understand process analysis per se.

The issue (as &lt;a href="http://processdevelopments.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-concluding-nuance-on-bpmn.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Tom Baeyens has stated&lt;/a&gt;) is that even though business and IT people might both use BPMN to model a process, the business people are modeling the most effective business process, and the IT people are modeling the most efficient code (albeit from an abstracted viewpoint). That doesn't always produce the same models in BPMN, which means that somehow you have to be able to take the business process that the business person modeled and tweak it  so that it will generate an efficient/complete executable without corrupting the original business process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BPM Addict, I agree that there&#8217;s some question over who should be doing what in the entire spectrum of process discovery, modeling and design, although I disagree that programmers don&#8217;t normally have strong systems analysis skills: if so, then they picked the wrong profession, since most programmers that I know (including me in a past life) always had to do some degree of systems analysis. Process analysis is a different story, and mostly programmers aren&#8217;t going to do that primarily because they don&#8217;t understand the nuances of the business process itself, not that they don&#8217;t understand process analysis per se.</p>
<p>The issue (as <a href="http://processdevelopments.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-concluding-nuance-on-bpmn.html" rel="nofollow">Tom Baeyens has stated</a>) is that even though business and IT people might both use BPMN to model a process, the business people are modeling the most effective business process, and the IT people are modeling the most efficient code (albeit from an abstracted viewpoint). That doesn&#8217;t always produce the same models in BPMN, which means that somehow you have to be able to take the business process that the business person modeled and tweak it  so that it will generate an efficient/complete executable without corrupting the original business process.</p>
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		<title>By: Light BPM</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7512</link>
		<dc:creator>Light BPM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7512</guid>
		<description>After reading Bruce Silver's article "Organizing Complex BPMN Models" I was asking myself at some point why should life be so hard?
For example: "Exceptions at child levels should be propagated to top level to return a response..That often requires propagating the success or failure indication from its source at a deeply nested level up to the top level, and then sending the response from there..." 
Why does such a complexity has to be drawn? Isn't it better at some point to eave the graphical tools? I figure that if we need to write code
to such case, we would do it in a much more elegant way. I guess the true need for the visual language is caried to the wrong places.
I must confess that I am still considering myself a BPM beginner, but I punched on cards my first Fortran program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading Bruce Silver&#8217;s article &#8220;Organizing Complex BPMN Models&#8221; I was asking myself at some point why should life be so hard?<br />
For example: &#8220;Exceptions at child levels should be propagated to top level to return a response..That often requires propagating the success or failure indication from its source at a deeply nested level up to the top level, and then sending the response from there&#8230;&#8221;<br />
Why does such a complexity has to be drawn? Isn&#8217;t it better at some point to eave the graphical tools? I figure that if we need to write code<br />
to such case, we would do it in a much more elegant way. I guess the true need for the visual language is caried to the wrong places.<br />
I must confess that I am still considering myself a BPM beginner, but I punched on cards my first Fortran program.</p>
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		<title>By: BPM Addict</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7510</link>
		<dc:creator>BPM Addict</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 05:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7510</guid>
		<description>Regarding what Michael says about the IT project in Sony: I use the presentation to support the need for the modeling etc... But please note that still IT people are the ones who perform the process analysis. As an X-programmer, I tend to think that system analysis or process analysis are not the strong side of programmers. (maybe it relates to a right/left brain thing..) On the other hand - business people have hard time with operating the tools. I think that the optimal target audience for this phase, which includes BPMN, better be clearly defined, identified  and trained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding what Michael says about the IT project in Sony: I use the presentation to support the need for the modeling etc&#8230; But please note that still IT people are the ones who perform the process analysis. As an X-programmer, I tend to think that system analysis or process analysis are not the strong side of programmers. (maybe it relates to a right/left brain thing..) On the other hand - business people have hard time with operating the tools. I think that the optimal target audience for this phase, which includes BPMN, better be clearly defined, identified  and trained.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-03-14 &#171; steinarcarlsen</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7502</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-03-14 &#171; steinarcarlsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 21:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7502</guid>
		<description>[...] Column 2 by Sandy Kemsley : The Great BPMN Debate (tags: bpmn) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Column 2 by Sandy Kemsley : The Great BPMN Debate (tags: bpmn) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael zur Muehlen</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7500</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael zur Muehlen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7500</guid>
		<description>Sandy, 

Thank for keeping us honest. I think Bruce, Jan and I do not disagree as much as the whole debate makes it look like. It boils down to the question of whether you can control the use of a language after it has been released. 

On the one hand, a lot of work went into BPMN and it is a very powerful vehicle, if you know how to use it properly. 

On the other hand, users may appropriate and extend the language in ways its designers could not foresee. For instance, &lt;a href="http://http://www.slideshare.net/garrettehunter/how-business-process-mapping-saved-an-it-project" rel="nofollow"&gt;Garrett Hunter&lt;/a&gt; has presented a great case study how Sony used a mashup of BPMN and IDEF0 to save a failing IT project. Should we tell them  "you can't do that because it's not how BPMN was intended to be used?"  

I believe that yes, there is great merit to structured BPMN education that explains the intention behind the language, its vocabulary, and shows how to use it in a well-formed way. But I also believe we need to keep an eye on how the larger BPM community uses BPMN and feed that information back into the development process.  If you read Bill Bryson's &lt;a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=h1Q3StqpwB4C&#38;dq=bill+bryson+english+and+how+it+got+that+way&#38;pg=PP1&#38;ots=8iZhDQYTBG&#38;sig=n6qldLXWUTorQSW33dmqpq9CrDM&#38;hl=en&#38;prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=Bill+Bryson+English+and+how+it+got+that+way&#38;ie=utf-8&#38;oe=utf-8&#38;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&#38;client=firefox-a&#38;sa=X&#38;oi=print&#38;ct=title&#38;cad=one-book-with-thumbnail" rel="nofollow"&gt;entertaining account on the history of the English language&lt;/a&gt; you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Best

Michael</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandy, </p>
<p>Thank for keeping us honest. I think Bruce, Jan and I do not disagree as much as the whole debate makes it look like. It boils down to the question of whether you can control the use of a language after it has been released. </p>
<p>On the one hand, a lot of work went into BPMN and it is a very powerful vehicle, if you know how to use it properly. </p>
<p>On the other hand, users may appropriate and extend the language in ways its designers could not foresee. For instance, <a href="http://http://www.slideshare.net/garrettehunter/how-business-process-mapping-saved-an-it-project" rel="nofollow">Garrett Hunter</a> has presented a great case study how Sony used a mashup of BPMN and IDEF0 to save a failing IT project. Should we tell them  &#8220;you can&#8217;t do that because it&#8217;s not how BPMN was intended to be used?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I believe that yes, there is great merit to structured BPMN education that explains the intention behind the language, its vocabulary, and shows how to use it in a well-formed way. But I also believe we need to keep an eye on how the larger BPM community uses BPMN and feed that information back into the development process.  If you read Bill Bryson&#8217;s <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=h1Q3StqpwB4C&amp;dq=bill+bryson+english+and+how+it+got+that+way&amp;pg=PP1&amp;ots=8iZhDQYTBG&amp;sig=n6qldLXWUTorQSW33dmqpq9CrDM&amp;hl=en&amp;prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=Bill+Bryson+English+and+how+it+got+that+way&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=print&amp;ct=title&amp;cad=one-book-with-thumbnail" rel="nofollow">entertaining account on the history of the English language</a> you&#8217;ll understand where I&#8217;m coming from.</p>
<p>Best</p>
<p>Michael</p>
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		<title>By: Sandy Kemsley</title>
		<link>http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7499</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy Kemsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.column2.com/2008/03/the-great-bpmn-debate/#comment-7499</guid>
		<description>Bruce, I think that it would have been useful if Michael and Jan had had access to the type of BPMN diagrams that your students are creating as part of their research in order to balance out the usage statistics a bit, but consider the &lt;a href="http://www.column2.com/2008/03/bpmn-survey-results/" rel="nofollow"&gt;results of Jan's survey last year&lt;/a&gt;: only 13.6% of BPMN modelers have any sort of formal training, so it's not surprising that the remaining ones are only using basic constructs.

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem: most people don't use the extended BPMN constructs because they've never been trained in them: they likely don't even know that they exist, even if they're using a BPMN tool that shows them in a palette. If they were trained in them, would they use them? Maybe.

The students in your classes are likely there because they have reached the limitations of what they could do with the basic set, and recognize not only that their processes are more complex, but that there has to be a better way to model them. That level of self-awareness about their own shortcomings does make them atypical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, I think that it would have been useful if Michael and Jan had had access to the type of BPMN diagrams that your students are creating as part of their research in order to balance out the usage statistics a bit, but consider the <a href="http://www.column2.com/2008/03/bpmn-survey-results/" rel="nofollow">results of Jan&#8217;s survey last year</a>: only 13.6% of BPMN modelers have any sort of formal training, so it&#8217;s not surprising that the remaining ones are only using basic constructs.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem: most people don&#8217;t use the extended BPMN constructs because they&#8217;ve never been trained in them: they likely don&#8217;t even know that they exist, even if they&#8217;re using a BPMN tool that shows them in a palette. If they were trained in them, would they use them? Maybe.</p>
<p>The students in your classes are likely there because they have reached the limitations of what they could do with the basic set, and recognize not only that their processes are more complex, but that there has to be a better way to model them. That level of self-awareness about their own shortcomings does make them atypical.</p>
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